Online workshop report: Online learning versus classroom training
Report from the Online Workshop on the subject of Classroom Training versus Online Learning, held on TrainingZONE and HR Zone on 13 February 2001.
Tim Pickles: OK - my clock says 13:00. I have several ideas to float and discuss today - as indicated in the workshop alert - but it would be helpful if everyone could briefly introduce themselves e.g. current role and/or experience of classroom and online training.
Tim Pickles: A brief sentence from everyone would be useful ...
Paul Duxbury: Afternoon all
Tim Pickles: Hi Paul - I'm facilitating discussion today and just asking everyone to give brief personal intro
Kaye O'Neill: Kaye O'Neill - Professional Development Mgr at the Centre for Prof. Development, currently not using e-learning at all for clients.
Tim Pickles: Thanks Kaye
Paul Duxbury: Hi I am Paul Duxbury work for Academee background in Management and Training using elearning
Andy Waterworth: Hi i'm Andy Waterworth I currently work as an Ecoach for an online learning company and have worked as a "stand up" trainer for the past 10years
Tim Pickles: Thanks Paul and Andy
Shelley O'Neill: Hi, I'm Shelley, been freelance for 5 years, in a partnership for past 2 years. Train staff in health & social services. Looking to develop online courses/support for students on our long-term training programmes which lead to qualifications
David Potter: I put together Sussex Virtual College - all 16 FE & 6th form Colleges in Sussex on a broadband network of 25 'learning rooms' connected together to enable live 'assisted' teaching in all the other rooms
Tim Pickles: OK - that background is helpful. There is a range of experience in the room today. Most people will be familiar with classroom delivery, so I wanted to begin by looking at what the merits might be, if any, of online delivery
Tim Pickles: This will be most useful for newcomers to online - can we share some ideas about how/when online works best - then we can look at different online methods
Andy Waterworth: I guess one of the benefits of online learning is the ability to bring remote working teams together
Tim Pickles: Online can certainly bridge the physical distance gap, but only if users have confidence in it and appropriate support - areas where classroom has traditionally scored highly.
Paul Duxbury: So what do others think might be benefits I am very aware of being in an online environment so would be interested in others views
Andy Waterworth: What would you consider to be appropriate support Tim?
Tim Pickles: A potential benefit of online is the 'immediacy' of the learning - just-in-time concepts; however, too many of the products currently available do not yet offer this functionality.
Shelley O'Neill: In our field it would enable staff to study at different times of day without leaving the workplace - the cost of cover for staff to attend training outside of the workplace in care can exclude a lot of people from learning opportunities. It's also got to be better than going out in the english weather, using our wonderful transport systems!
Tim Pickles: Andy, by 'support for online learning' I mean how the tutor/coach identifies and encourages the learner who is falling out - the confident learner knows to ask for support, but its the unconfident ones who really need pro-active contact e.g. "We've not heard from you; how's it going?" type support.
Jacqui Bradney: After some research with Professionals there appears to be a potential problem with dedicated time in the workplace
Paul Duxbury: I think we firstly need to define what we are looking to achieve, what the needs of the learner and organisation are and then look at the appropriate medium for delivery
Tim Pickles: Good point Jacqui - classroom training (especially at a non-office location) focuses the learner and protects the time; online training is much less protected of both time and attention.
Andy Waterworth: Jacqui does the problem with time in the workplace also apply to classroom training? How many people have had delegates cancel due to work commitments
Tim Pickles: Both forms of learning require 'buy-in' from the learner; it seems to me though that's it much easier to drop out of online learning - unless the support mechanisms are strong and proactive.
Shelley O'Neill: We often have last minute cancelleations due to "unexpected" work commitments, also transport difficulties. Last week tube strike on monday produced a group of only 2 participants out of a possible 20. This surely wouldn't happen with online training
Paul Duxbury: Isnt it about having a motivation to learn - how mant "learners" sit in the classroom and walk out having acquired knowledge but not having understood or learn anything?
Tim Pickles: We are seeing the emergence of two very different types of online learning now ..........
Tim Pickles: Firstly, there are 'pre-packaged' or 'boxed' learning e.g. the pre-assembled course on e.g. leadership skills which you buy from a provider in 'off-the-shelf' mode ...
Tim Pickles: Secondly, there is a fast emergence of 'collaborative' online learning - groups (not individuals) meeting together online, using real-time voice communication, sharing powerpoint slides, and re-creating many of the characteristics of live debate in the classroom ...
Jacqui Bradney: I seem to have lost connection - Training can be perceived as a potential problem, either classroom, CBT or CET, the trainer has to be sympathetic to the needs of the employer when internally scheduled training takes place ..Which is why e-learning is useful to professionals
Shelley O'Neill: sorry, not au fait with the jargon - what does CBT or CET mean?
Tim Pickles: Our view at present is that the online collaborative tools will prove to be more relevant in the future
Michiel Erasmus: Tim, any specific tools ?
Tim Pickles: CBT = computer based training (studying a learning programme on the internet or CD-rom)
Paul Duxbury: TimI think the leading edge issue in eLearning is about building Communities of Learners into Communities of Application or Practice geneerating their own learning needs, defining their own content and exploring together
Jacqui Bradney: Shelley - CBT is Computer based and CET is Computer Enhanced Training.
Tim Pickles: I agree Paul - a useful analogy is to consider 'action learning sets' translated into an online environment
Tim Pickles: Michiel, there are some group online learning tools coming to the market e.g ...
Paul Duxbury: Tim agree with you there. I think we need to stop refering to the shovelware that CBT is as online learning
Tim Pickles: Centra, Webex, Evoke, Claripoint, - some allow groups of people to actually talk together in real time (unlike this cumbersome text chat we're presently engaged in) and most of these tools allow a presenter to put up slides or a whiteboard which everyone can see simulateously in real time.
David Potter: To me the two types on online learning are 'self-paced' and 'assisted' - with assisted being what happens in classrooms. The networks that I have put together focus on delivering assisted learning across distance - they rely on interactive video broadcasting and in the case of Gloucester we have equipped learning rooms at industry premises so that employees come straight into the room and particpate in the live training as they need it - the network also records all the provision delivery for later review
Tim Pickles: Good point, David, about the ability of new technology to actually record live learning events - enabling those who were not present to 'see' it later
Paul Duxbury: Tim I think some of the online synchronous tools that are coming to Market will make the leap forward for us that will bring about much greater acceptance of online learning
Shelley O'Neill: Tim, where could I find out more about those tools, that sounds like what we're looking for
Jacqui Bradney: How adaptable though are the programs within online learning to a classroom trainer (who can think on there feet)
Michiel Erasmus: Anybody know of 'soft issue' training (i.e. client care) delivered successfully on-line ?
Paul Duxbury: Jacqui and Michiel ermmmm Yes LOL
Tim Pickles: Over the past couple of months, we've been evaluating seven of these collaborative tools - and I'm in the middle of writing an Advice Guide to them (to be published shortly on the site) - we're also in the final stages of negotiationg to put one or more such tools across the site so that any trainer can use them.
Christine Stavrinadi: does anybody know where i can get information on the
Christine Stavrinadi: on e-learning in Greece or Italy?
Andy Waterworth: We seem to have focused on the methods of delivery rather than the value of the two styles. We must not forget that for any of these approaches to work there must be a commitment within the organisation that learning is important.
Tim Pickles: Michiel - the best examples I know of concern 'management skills' but again using collaborative group learning, rather than a pre-packaged programme
Tim Pickles: For those people who have made the transition, what advice do you have to offer to assist classroom trainers develop online training skills?
Angela Wilde: I'm interested to hear how people have combined online training with classroom delivery. How easy was it to achieve? Do you have any tips?
Jacqui Bradney: I agree Andy, after some research over the last few days there seems to be a lack of commitment from employers to allow staff the time, dedicated area or to receive recognition.Classroom seems to still be more recognised
Paul Duxbury: Tim I think that some trainers can and want to make the transition others don't. But if we are talking about a transition to Online Coaching as opposed to Tutoring it can be a difficult transition for people to make.
Jacqui Bradney: As a classroom trainer, I would say that combining the two inside the classroom could be difficult. How often when training applications do you use the html help of products?
Tim Pickles: For employers, classroom training is still familiar, quantifiable, easy to organise. For the learner too, it is familiar - with all the networking and social benefits of 'time away from my office'. Whilst online can reduce costs, it needs to sell solutions to these perceptions also.
David Potter: online training with classroom delivery is perfectly feasible but the delivery and reciever points must be properly designed and integrated into a teaching ethos - lots of educational instituions have video conferencing installations which are not fit for normal edicational purpose
Carrol Rowe: Some employers see classroom as a quick answer to their training need in comparison with online
Paul Duxbury: We do seem to be focussed on teaching/training - what about Learning?
Andy Waterworth: It is very easy to get carried away by e-learning what we must remember is that it is just another method in our toolkit. Much as you would use pre-work or pre-reading you may use E-learning pre course. post course you may use it as a toll for further learning. the term being widely used at present is "the blended Solution".
Jon: I have just finished a weeks classroom based training and am working towards taking the exam. e-learning seems to be a good way to get that extra practice in
Jacqui Bradney: How many people here have tried e-learning? I have and found it useful, thought provoking but lacking theory, which hampers in my case the learning process. I am yet to try interactive e-learning, where I want to ask Why,How,What
Tim Pickles: There are some interesting examples of classroom programmes being supported post-course by online coaching and discussion - another example of blending
Paul Duxbury: Jacqui and that is what collaborative Learning offers - the opportunity to explore and learn alongside and with others in an aysnchronous and synchronous manner
Michiel Erasmus: Anybody, would the investment in the new technology and delivery plaform(s) provide a greater return on investment (knowledge gained, skills acquired,greater productivity) than if invested in 'traditional' methods ?
Jacqui Bradney: Paul Thank-you, please advise where I can check out these packages online?
Paul Duxbury: Jacqui I cant advertise on here byt my email address gives you a good clue where to look LOL
Paul Duxbury: but*
Tim Pickles: Jacqui - contact me by email afterwards, and I can supply the web addresses of some suppliers
Jon: I am currently writing a dissertation looking at online within business. The trend is up and it seems that it is a market place that will see a large growth in the next few years.
Tim Pickles: Michiel - for many employers I don't recommend installing the technology themselves - the costs can be high - but the platforms can be 'rented' or used in their public web pages - this is a lower risk solution when the technology is changing so fast
Jon: Would anyone have any information around online learning within business? I am trying to assess the impact of online learning within business
Michiel Erasmus: Tim, true as regards to outsourcing etc. but would still need to convince management as to the 'cost' of the investment as they would pose the standard questions; what is the ROI, increase in productivity, any benefits to the organisation and so on
Tim Pickles: We're coming to the end of today's scheduled session - are there final questions or comments people want to ask - we publish this transcript later today if you want to review it
Michiel Erasmus: Thanks Tim, looking forward to the review on the tools.
Andy Waterworth: If anyone would like to contact myself or Paul Duxbury we would happy to share our view of online learning from a providers point of view.
Jacqui Bradney: Thanks Tim
Paul Duxbury: Thanks Tim
Carrol Rowe: Bye
Tim Pickles: OK folks - we seem to have dried up - feel free to contact me by email afterwards if you wish (click my name once to see me email address); the transcript goes up this afternoon when I get round to it!
Clare Mckenzie , 07 January 2002 @ 13:39 PM I am a soft skills trainer keen to understand Online learning
It would seem a lot of trainers and e-technical people have views and experience of O.L.L.
My questions are:- What evidence proves this method of training realy provides measurable deliverables and is more effective than say on job coaching and mentoring?
What are the comments of the candidates?
What type of training is best suited to this method if any?
If it delivers all that it promises how can it be sold to companies so that it is not percieved as a quick fix to their training commitments.
How do you overcome the basic learning needs?
How and who evaluates this training method?
Skills are easy to train but how do you overcome the behavoural needs which eables learning?
Are we in danger of promoting a gimmick with little evidence of real benefits??
Samantha Lee , 04 April 2001 @ 15:02 PM An e-learning strategy
I manage a small training dept within the automotive industry. The people we predominately train cannot afford to be away from their day job for long periods of time. We have a number of CBT courses but I now want to go down the path of e-learning using the combined effort. Is there any recommended training workshops where I could meet with like minded people to discuss how to do this, what to look for, what not to do etc.
Can anyone help?
Paul Duxbury , 20 February 2001 @ 10:43 AM A New World of Opportunities
Interesting debare which has tended to focus on the limits of some of the current technologies!
I can remember my first mobile phone, the size of a housebrick with three batteries needed to get you through the day as a light user! Now look at mobiles and everybody has one.
The technologies will continue to develop and exceed our expectations.
The excitement for me of e-Learning is the opportunities it offers to take learning into new areas. I can already sit in my office or at home and work collaboratively with other Learners from around the Globe either synchronously or asynchronously. I can share ideas and thinking across cultures, be exposed to new and different ways of thinking and then try out new approaches.
Learning and Development for me have always been about opening people's eyes and minds to the possibilities offered to them not limiting them to the here and now but challenging them to think differently.
E-Learning is not the answer to every need, it is a methodology that has a place alongside other methodologies. The blended or intergrated solution has to be the way forward. Identifying what organisations and individuals want to achieve and then matching the most appropriate blend of solutions to meet those needs
Garry Platt , 19 February 2001 @ 07:12 AM Tomorrow
I do and I will - realistically and objectively. Garry Platt
Robin T Cox , 17 February 2001 @ 18:08 PM e-learning
Garry Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. Regards Robin
Garry Platt , 15 February 2001 @ 07:43 AM Unwarranted
I look forward to the time when I can connect my Nokia 7110 to my Dell Laptop and get training events/modules quickly and cheaply, it will, as you suggest be marvellous. But with a Baud rate of 9600 using the Vodaphone network (14000 with Orange) it just isn’t viable with a personally sponsored phone, not for me or anyone else unless they have very deep pockets and plenty of time to kill. WAP has been a big let down. I own a WAP phone and I can testify to its complete bloody uselessness.
This issue was about training, not getting instructions on mending a technical problem, downloading simple instructions to change a fuse is one thing (our Xerox technician does it already, though not by WAP or through a mobile, he uses our landline) downloading a developmental, interactive programme which engages me as a learner is quite another issue and a quantum leap in bandwidth requirements which the mobile networks cannot technically or physically currently support.
Your suggestion that I ‘get real’ is unwarranted – I’m very real if by this you mean realistic. And as far offering something better, I’m just offering the facts as they exist today, unpalatable though they may be. 3G technology (which will make WAP and mobile internet access viable) is at least 3 years away from being rolled out in this country and then God knows how long after that before its prohibitively expensive costs reduce and make it accessible for anyone other than corporate users.
Yes – 'get real' is indeed good advice. Garry Platt
Robin T Cox , 14 February 2001 @ 19:02 PM e-learning
Garry Don't be restricted by today's limitations. Be stimulated by tomorrow's possibilities. Get real - this technology is available now for some, and will be available for all within a short time. I repeat - there is no reason why an engineer cannot stuff a mobile communicator (Nokia?) in his/her back pocket to be able to access a technical library plus a course of instruction to tell him/her how to fix the fault. Can you offer something better?
Garry Platt , 14 February 2001 @ 13:17 PM Comm's
I have a laptop that I can connect via my Mobile. The idea of doing an 'e' based event this way sends shivers down my spine, it’s way too slow and much too expensive.
And the idea of using my Palm or any hand held as a reading aid is unacceptable at the moment, it just hasn't got the capacity or the graphical resolution.
I believe that both concepts will eventually work, but they are not practical today, the technology has a fraction more to go and the pricing a considerable depth to fall.
Robin T Cox , 14 February 2001 @ 09:15 AM e-learning
A stimulating discussion. Another point worth remembering about e-learning is that nowadays it is portable. You can study wherever you like, and with the new generation of mobile phone-cum-laptops you can take it with you wherever you go. So if you're an engineer you can stick the course in your back pocket and refer to it when you need to fix the machinery. You could not have done this with the library full of engineering documentation used in the past. Nor would that library have shown you how to fix the job.
Garry Platt , 14 February 2001 @ 08:11 AM Recall
"The advantage of on-line learning is that people can revisit elements of the training at the time when they actually need to put the skills into practice within their day-to-day work, which is far more relevant in this information age." I only partially agree with this view because with decent supporting materials the class room based learner can return to their notes, references and handouts to recapture or recall the past learning, which I suspect would be easier to do and work with than having to access a learning site or CD ROM stored in the learning centre. The combination view of using both mediums is spot on I believe. Garry Platt
Louise Jaggs , 13 February 2001 @ 14:08 PM Response to Kirsty watkinson's comment
Classroom training may have a captive audience at the time, but there's only a certain amount that people will absorb. The advantage of on-line learning is that people can revisit elements of the training at the time when they actually need to put the skills into practice within their day-to-day work, which is far more relevant in this information age. However, e-learning isn't a panacea. Although it can work well as a stand-alone option it's best employed as part of a training solution that's structured to the needs of organisations and individuals. Skillsoft PressZONE
Kirsty Watkinson , 13 February 2001 @ 13:38 PM Motivation
Motivation of learners is a key issue with on-line learning. It is far easier to maintain the interest of a captive audience in a classroom environement.
